Voice of the Masses: Should we recommend “advanced” distros to newbies?
|If a Windows user is considering switching to Linux and asks us to recommend a distro, we typically roll out the usual desktop favourites: Ubuntu, Mint, Fedora, OpenSUSE and co. But is this actually the best approach? One Reddit user recently described his experiences when switching from Windows to Linux, and after battling problems with the newbie-friendly distros, he actually had the most success with Slackware.
So that got us wondering: should we all start pushing more “advanced” distros such as Arch and Slackware on new users, so that they can learn how GNU/Linux works from the start, and don’t get the impression that it’s just like Windows with a different interface? Does that help prepare new users to deal with issues later down the line? Or would it just be counter-productive, and the likes of Ubuntu and Fedora are popular for a reason?
Let us know your thoughts in the comments below, and we’ll read out the best in our upcoming podcast recording!
Short answer: No.
Longer answer: No, it is a really bad idea… Unless you are ready to provide hundreds of hours of free support. In that case, it’s OK.
That depends on the user.
I think it’s a pretty bad idea if your Dad asks you about an operating system to get him an Arch iso and wish him good luck. And since most Non-Linux-Users are no tech experts, I would not recommend them software that requires expert skills.
However, I can easily think of users that might prefer less beginner-friendly GNU/Linuxes to start with. Maybe an experienced app-developer changing from OS X (might like the more Unix-like approach of Slackware), a long-term Windows sysadmin (might like the flexibility of Arch or Debian) and so forth.
I would say no.
Linux has long been stereo-typed the playground of uber-geeks and those who live in their mother’s basement and do nothing but use their computer all day.
If you’re trying to get someone to use Linux, starting them off on something like Arch or Slackware would not be a good idea, as it would just scare them off – especially if they aren’t technically-inclined.
If you’ve got a friend who’s already good with computers, then *maybe* it would be okay – but you had better be ready to help with everything from fixing drivers to resolving package/dependency issues.
TL;DR: I personally would never recommend an advanced distro to someone who has never used Linux before. They have enough to adjust to as it is, making them deal with the stuff that comes with distros like Arch would not help.
Short Answer: No
Long Answer: No way !
Best distro for newbies: The one that provides an out-of-the-box experience and/or with an easy to find (i.e. google it) information for the most common “problems”. In my view this falls into Mint or Ubuntu.
However, if you are going to install, maintain and resolve the problems, no recommendation is necessary. Just install the one you like best.
Short: No, you shouldn’t do that.
Long: For new users an “advanced” distro can be frustrating and may keep them using Windows. Often there are no advanced people out there to help them solving problems or telling them where to find the knowledge to solve them themselves.
But PLEASE: It’s great that LinuxVoice does not only talk about ?buntu and Mint … a lot of german Linux-Magazines do this and really: it sucks to read only about ?buntu and Mint.
Not generally
if you know the person has some idea, ie is competent around other operating systems and are looking to learn possibly, but in general, no, never it will just put them off
If I am encouraging a Windows user to switch to Linux, I feel that I am probably signing up to be their Linux Help Desk. For that reason, I recommend that they use the same distros that I do. They won’t run into that much trouble, compared with their old Windows setup. When they do, I will not have to “translate” my proposed solutions or use a command line fix to ensure compatibility. We can just fix it together.
Any problem I have had with Linux in the past 5 years has been easier to fix than (say) reviving a Windows machine that has been powered off for 40 days or more. #Updates
Define Newbie? A Linux newbie or a computing newbie. If the user would have just as much trouble installing Windows as Linux then stick to a simple and complete distro like Mint or Ubuntu. Now if the person is experienced and a veteran users of Windows or OS X then perhaps an advanced distro would suit them better to learn the ins and outs of Linux. If they weren’t afraid to google solutions and potentially damage their current OS then they won’t be shy about doing the same with a distro like Arch.
It depends on the user.
If the user has some interest in technical stuff then yes. Otherwise probably not.
It’s okay to let them use it, but you’d better be prepared to be their sysadmin.
I don’t really buy this advanced vs newbie thing. If you’re going to use the likes of Mint or Ubuntu well you need to be able to do some command line stuff, even if you just Google the command you need every time.
If you can do that, I’d pretty much recommend using Debian anyway because it’s faster, more stable and there are loads of online instructions to look up and follow parrot-fashion even if you don’t know how they work.
Conversely, I wouldn’t even recommend things like Gentoo to people who know loads about computers because they’re just more work than they need to be for very little benefit.
It really depends on the person, their requirement (e.g. personal use, job credentials, or tinkering), and their learning style (e.g take it slowly or jump right in).
For me, my first experience was with Red Hat. It had a graphical interface, albeit the horrible Gnome 1.0. I quickly found that it tried to hide the internals. I jumped to Sorceror GNU/Linux because it gave me more control and used spells to cast and dispel packages. After that project ended, I noticed the devs moved to Gentoo and tried that. I, of course, did a stage 1 install because I wanted to learn about the system and how it worked. It failed the first time, but eventually I got it working. Sure compiling took a long time (X took almost a week on a pentium 75), but it was my computer for learning and trying out new things. If I had a system that just worked, I would have become bored quickly and I would probably be a BSD user now (just kidding).
When i was a linux newbie i got to learn on the college’s red hat linux 5.0 server (not red hat enterprise) and got introduced to debian and slackware. of course i was studying computers at the time… Linux and UNIX have a reputation for being different and thus difficult but they just require a different way of seeing things.
I would suggest these days if someone wants to just use linux as the os to browse the web, play mp3s/oggs etc just throw mint or whatever on there. if they want to learn linux id suggest they try a few distros themselves, get familiar with a shell and a few editors, get used to reading documentation and just dive in.
If someone wants to learn, i would suggest either to follow the arch wiki or to grab a few distros and start an intro course like lpi linux essentials or linux foundations intro to linux or watch a few vids… if someone wants to do something i wouldn’t say no, but i would suggest that the expectation is that you first try to find the info yourself before you go looking for tech support. Cos after all, it’s just a computer and if you have a backup of your files, you can get a clean simple system up and running in under an hour as well as being able to experiment as much as you like in virtual machines
I think it depends on the user. While I think it should be appropriate to demand a greater degree of technical literacy from from the so-called average person, as it stands most people are terrible with computers. I think for these people a beginner-friendly distro, such as Mint, is more appropriate. For people who are more comfortable with computers, and know how to find information on their own, it might very well be better to throw them in at the deep end.
the way i read it
“after battling problems with the newbie-friendly distros, he actually had the most success with Slackware.”
Means Slackware had the most success on that machines hardware.
Your all barking up the wrong tree.
Really . . . . Slackware or Arch for a newbie!?!? 😐
I installed opensuse for my father that only browse, watch flash/html 5 videos and occational email and document writing with a connected printer he uses very seldom.
On a Lenovo Thinkpad opensuse 13.2 was perfectly installed. wlan, hibernation, suspend to disk worked straight out of the box. Had some small issues with the printer but less than on windows. Needed to extract the .ppd from the windows driver.
Earlier I used to get complains about how do I do that, it is so slow when it ran windows. Now He is very statisfied and have not aksed about any support. Apart from the printer this was all automatic.
I’ve never had it so easy with win7.
Along with most of the sentiments here I don’t think Arch or Gentoo or similar ‘advanced’ distros are a good idea for Linux newbies. However I would be inclined to go to a ‘half way house’ of Manjaro or Sabayon. I realise these are smaller communities and people will still have issues but I find they both give a mix of advanced and basic.
I do prefer the ‘baptism of fire’ method to learning though so something more advanced than Fedora or Ubuntu would be an idea I think. Personally I like Sabayon or Manjaro but that’s me 🙂
I think most people that have said it depends on the user have got it right.
Given you do not know exactly who is picking up the magazine, that makes it a little tricky. I would say a fair spread of distros would be the way forward. That way you can cover a range of distros for different people to choose from, (making the mag long-term interesting/valued rather than totally newbie centric as per a former magazine has become) just make sure there is a little box estimating a confidence level required (note not necessarily a skill level).
I for one would like to hear about Slackware in terms of installation and use rather than history (a link would do for this).
If you’re already an advanced user of Windows, then why not? They will probably tell you what sort of computing requirements they have how much they know about how things work. For new users in general, I would say a distro is already as advanced as it needs to be, but hides some of this away unless you go looking. Some people may prefer a simple interface like gnome, or more complex one like KDE, but with a powerful shell lying only a click away, the fact that you can run a root shell within seconds on Mint or Ubuntu means an “advanced distro” isn’t really far away even on a newbie friendly OS.
Every user, their hardware, computing needs and expectations differ. The ‘right’ distro needs to match these criteria.
I think the important thing to highlight to new users of Linux is that they do have choice, and if the distro they start with is not meeting their needs, then there are many other choices out there.
Take the time to become familiar with how Linux operates first. Keep your data in a separate ‘home’ partition, and when ready, try a different distro.
Most of us use Linux, at least in part, because of the freedom of choice that it offers; that includes hardware, software and operating system variances, and for some, licensing choices.
Any recommendation that most of us would give is almost certainly based on our biases, often with little regard to what the new Linux user is potentially capable of, or willing to try. Aside from that, many of us have found the distro we are most comfortable with and have minimal experience using other distros, further limiting any recommendations we might give; particularly if you are going to be the primary ‘support’ contact. As a result ‘our’ recommendation is likely to the one we use (or one from the same family), but that does not have to be, and quite possibly won’t be, the final distro of choice for the new user.
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Having taken a moment to read the Reddit article you reference, several things spring to mind…
They are an ‘experienced’ user, Windows since 1999, and they allude to being a power user, not just an Office user. Also, they were willing to ‘tinker’ with another OS (Linux, no less), so obviously someone with some willingness to ‘learn’. As an aside, there is no indication that they were recommended any of the earlier distros.
There is no explanation of the stability issues they encountered, but as @LagerMonster suggests, there is a good chance they were caused by hardware and as such kernel/driver related issues, especially dating back to 2007. Seven years later, probably with new hardware themselves, but definitely better kernel and drivers, it is no surprise that stability is less of an issue.
Finally, like most of us that have migrated away from Windows, they found the trigger that provided enough inertia to break through the ‘pain of change’. They have obviously been unhappy with Windows for a while, but it took Windows 8.x to provide enough motivation to commit to the change (some people take longer than others 😉 ). They also happened to chance upon a distro that obviously met their specific ‘needs’ (as listed above), so win-win. Welcome to the Linux community @SlackToTheFuture.
Certainly, but with a disclaimer of what to expect from the particular distributions way of working in patches while at the same time recommend alternatives if they run into issues.
Advanced or not, I’ve seen way to many user-friendly distros shit themself while doing updates, so I don’t really see a difference anymore.
The vast majority of computer users just use computers to do things and the less technicalities get in the way the better. KISS,
There is an important learning step that needs to be taken for a newbie to turn into an advanced user, and this can only be achieved by doing. I did this for myself by going through the process of installing Gentoo on a system. Really understanding partitions, chroot, and command line.
OK I agree that this should not be the first exposure to Linux, even the ordinary user who is not a sysadmin or the like can benefit from the understanding that comes from a deeper dive into the OS than just using the desktop.
I think it depends on the person, but overall no.
I think the best distro to recommend to someone coming off windows is something with a familiar environment for which support is readily and easily available. For that reason I recommend (and use) xubuntu. I think that a more traditional desktop environment like XFCE or LXDE is the best thing for newbies because it’s closest to what they’re familiar with. Having e.g ubuntu underpinning it means that support is very easy to find – all you have to do is explain that they’re running a version of ubuntu and that they can search for “ubuntu [problem]” to find the answer.
I’d recommend something with a rather different appearance to Windows for newbies. If the desktop is too familiar then people can get annoyed by small differences where the behaviour was not quite what they expected, interrupting their work-flow.
With a distinctly different desktop, like Gnome or (whisper it!) Unity, there is no expectation that it runs the same as Windows, so there is less of that jarring effect of forgetting it isn’t Windows and getting caught out. It takes a little explanation at first, but might be better in the long run.
So, which distro? One with a distinctive default desktop manager and few gotchas when updating. So not Arch or Fedora: Debian or Ubuntu/Ubuntu Gnome?
The question is sort of a problem itself. As people pointed out, what do you mean by newbie? Someone with good knowledge of windows but no experience in other OSes, someone with generally poor “computer skils”, someone really good at two or three application (word processing, presentations, excell, for example) but calling for an IT guy whenever something goes wrong with the underlying OS, or something else. The point is, it seems that what you’ve collected so far are answers to more than one (simple) question.
Most people I know don’t care about OS they are using, as long as there is software they use available and work in the way they are used to. In that sense it doesn’t really matter what distro you try to introduce them to. They simply don’t need all that technicality, they just want a computer that will let them finish the job at hand. They won’t bother installing the OS themselves and in many cases it would be waste of their time if learning about, or fiddling with OS would get in the way of them actually doing the job. So, in this case it is irrelevant which distro gets installed for them as long as the “productive software” is setup in the way it enables them to make swift transition. It is more important to showcase linux (as a generic notion) as a viable foundation for work environment (for example: MSOffice+SPSS > Libreoffice+SPSSLinux) than to insist on linux itself for the sake of it. In my experience people usually notice the advantage of linux as smooth experience after prolonged use.
On the other hand ‘newbies’ that like tinkering with their computers are curious enough to invest time in learning. I agree with people saying you should introduce them with the distro you use. I usually install Antergos, which I happily use for couple years now, or one of the Ubuntus, since I am reasonably familiar with both. And I agree with RocheLimit about giving new linux users a novel experience with different appearance to windows.
The main points, in my limited experience, to make about linux are: how fast they install, how much simpler installation is than in windows, how a complete reinstallation can be done in no time and no settings will be lost if your home folder is on a separate partition, how little issues with drivers I’ve had in the last couple years at least (I started with Mandrake 8 I think, still have the box with 9 CDs somewhere), compared to windows which gets more and more troublesome and dubious with drivers.
But again, are we talking about people who want to install their OS, or about people who want some software running but are not interested in what OS is installed?
I’ve been installing Manjaro on newbie friends’ machines as an experiemnt beginning last year. Since I’m using Arch and Manjaro exclusively now it’s easier to admin their machines if they get into a pickle. As it turns out the experiment has been successful, and it’s now my default recommendation. I haven’t had to intervene except for very easy things: e.g. forgot to type sudo or rm a lock file in the var/pkg directory. They do all the updates themselves, and it’s rare they come knocking. I also don’t have to worry about fresh installs when the next LTS comes out, or midwifing the release upgrade attempt, or screwing around like I did the other day trying to help a friend try to get Libreoffice 5 installed –unsuccessfully– on Crunchbang/Debian wheezy.
I’m not sure how straight the lines are when we divide distros into beginner/advanced, and I want to question the conventional thinking on the issue. For example, even though Manjaro is built on Arch, it has 1) a graphical installer, 2) auto hw detection, 3) non-free codecs, 4) a gui package manager, 5) unsurpassed package availability (incl. the AUR) so you don’t have to build any fringe packages yourself, and 6) it rolls, so no non-newbie friendly a) risky, crufty release upgrades or b) waste-a-day, clean re-installs accidentally overwriting the whole hard drive or other pitfalls.
How could I forget to mention 7) the Archwiki, the ace in the hole?
Depends on the user some beginners benefit from diving in the deep end. Ending up as power users. They end up with Slackware or Arch. Then there are those who simply want a Windows replacement like a Mint or Zorin type distro.
So it depends on the end user’s level of learning they wish to follow the hold your hand approach or get into the guts of the system and build it themselves. Of course the ones who prefer the hand holding can always take the power user’s journey further down the line if they so wish.
The community is of course big enough to accommodate both.
I am a firm believer in using the tools appropriate for the job, and being able to maintain ones tools to at least some level. For most users that would mean a Chromebook, or netbook with a simple distro and browser, word processor, media player and possibly a selection of time sink games. However if the individual wants to learn, and not just paddle in the shallow waters of computing as most do, then there is no reason not to give them more advanced tools, so long as comprehensive support is available.
Others have also made the point that how one defines “advanced” and “beginner” distros should be considered. From experience text and ncurses interfaces scare most users, which is perhaps a reflection on society’s declining literacy.
I wouldn’t call maintaining any windows machine a beginners task, most windows users call someone whenever their machine falls over, so providing support for most GUI based distros should theoretically be no more difficult, and with the right setup far easier. Letting a user with no previous experience loose with a text based interface would be pointless, as even those with “no experience” have had some contact with GUIs and will expect that as a minimum.
I am in the middle of this process, switching to Linux. The problem for me is the lack of structure in all the information that is available, in other words it is very hard to find the information I need, presented in a way that I, non-technician but very much interested in all this, can understand/use it.
I have chosen to install Linux Mint. A more technical distribution would have caused even more problems I think. To be honoust it appears to be very difficult for people who are in Linux to talk/write in a way that I, Windows-user and not educated in IT, can understand it.
So I woud not be in favour of starting off with more sophisticated but also more complex Linux distributions. I would plee for more info specifically written for motivated Linux-newbees.
Usually, when I learn about something, I interest myself for complicated and intricate relationships etc. You may say that “I don’t like prettyfying things. I want it the hard way.”
The same is true for me in relation to computers. I use arch and try to find out lots of things myself.
I would recommend this approach for those who think they would enjoy it. I find it very useful and rewarding.
The first distro I installed was Raspbian on a Pi, then Linux Mint on a USB, from your CD. I did not use it often. I then paused for months. Then I thought about what I wanted to achieve: Learn computers, their intricacies and complexities, without hiding things that I could find (‘prettyfying’), and have customizable, modular, lightweight programs that allow me access to my computer, built by people who think in some ways similar to me, and around ideals I approve of.
I chose Arch GNU/Linux, an I am happy with it.
(I often choose not to be satisfied, to prevent myself from settling and growing comfortable with a situation that will change anyways, and to always learn=change=evolve myself. For simplicity, you may say I am satisfied with Arch.)
I suggest giving new people ideas they can follow according to their interests, not decide for them.
One may resume this as me being for people to learn things without hiding information which one could show, aka that I suggest pointing users to distro’s like Arch.
I would add that documentation which is simple clear to understand and up to date, is very important when choosing a distro and some distros do that better than others.
I have recently made the jump after trying probably all the distro’s mentioned & I think all available desktops.
I have settled on PCLinuxOs for several reasons, most of which would be relevant to others intending to cross the great divide, few of which seem to have received any mention here.
Hardware support, I use a 1280×1024 default display and proprietary drivers. So far PCL has been the only distro to fully support my monitor.
Ease of updating: PCL unlike most if not all of the distro’s mentioned here is a rolling release and does just not make an issue out of the process.
It supports variety of desktops, I use Mate @ the moment but could switch at any time if I wanted to.
It offers an easy learning curve but also offers full scope for more advanced users.
In other words its just about perfect.